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Hannes Czeitschner

hi joe,

please no being grumpy. i think most followers got it first time. the others just want to avoid the suffering for 30 minutes. it's much easier to ask question, after question than it is to go out and race on your own.
if you still get more questions simply tell them there is data that shows a more precise number with a 1hr solo race. that will get them grumpy...


you explained it fine the first time, really!


I thought it was pretty self explanatory when I read it in the book. I think it's just that most people are used to time trials with other coaches, like you mentioned.

Appreciate all the current content on the blog!


I think if you told a group of cyclists to go out and ride as hard as they could for 20 km (or 30 minutes) some would blow up after 18 minutes, and some would go way to slow at the start (especially if they didn't have HR/power to pace them). You need to have a vague idea of your CP30 before determining CP30. I don't think there is any way around that. If you screw it up you need to do it again (yay).

I think in your books (or maybe on this blog) you have pointed out that you might need to do the test once or twice before figuring out the correct pacing. If you're not completely cooked by the end you went too easy. If your power/pace/speed drops continuously through the test you went out too hard.

One thing I do (and I think you do as well, because I see these numbers in your notes section of your power files) is keep track of output/input relationships (power/heartrate or power/(heartrate-HRmin)) for 30-40 minute steady submax efforts. If those relationships change, then you need to retest, and if you look carefully at the change you have a pretty good idea of the pace to start out with on the next CP30 test.

Someone else mentioned your FTP confirm test. I also do that if I think something changed. Or a British MAP test. If all these easy checks haven't changed FTP probably hasn't changed. And if they have, then it is CP30 sufferfest time.

Martin Cléroult

Sorry for the confusion (i am french, so i probably missed something) but i understand better now.

Best average effort for 30 minutes !

Thank you,


LOL. There will always be those personalities that need everything explained. They will even wonder what pump you use, and if that pump is properly calibrated. If so, when? If when, by who? If the water is filtered, and dissect every word as if it is some crazy cipher. It's comical to a point....


I'm sorry but how many times do you need to keep explaining this! It's 30min, just find a flat road and ride it for 30min even if it means turning round and going back the other way. If your effort was too high just repeat it a few days later with slightly less effort. Try it a few times and you will get the right pace.


We tend to feel sorry for ourselves when alone and much less so when in a real race.

Why ?

Testosteron ???


Question, does the idea of pacing defeat the test? I mean if your supposed to be running or riding as hard as you can at ay given moment are you even worried about pacing or should you just run or ride.

After reading the grumpy article, it was time for me to do the test anyways, so I just set my Garmin on an interval work out and used 10 minutes and 20 minutes, so my watch automatically did the work. Then I didnt look at it, just ran. I surprised myself at my speed and the LTH results. I believe this was because I didnt worry about pace at all but just ran.


I would be grumpy too if I had to write a whole blog post on what "30 minutes" means.


Hi Joe, have you returned to exercise after your recent cycling accident? If not, maybe THAT's why you're feeling grumpy! :)

I'm glad you wrote this post because it confirms what I've done when asked to run for a certain time. I was experimenting with Veronique Billat's protocol for improving VO2max based on a 6-minute time trial. I guestimated I could run about a mile in 6 minutes and found it easier to do that instead of the 6-minute test. It might not be exact, but's its close for me, expecially fitness is a hobby and not a career.

Hope the cycling injuries are healing well. Take care.

Joe Friel

Hi Bruce--Yes, I'm getting some trainer time daily and lifting weights. Upper body only of course. Thanks for your comment.


Wait... now I'm confused!

haha! Sorry, just had to.

I think of heart rate as a tachometer, I know the engine is getting stronger when I see more speed from the same HR as the weeks and months go by.

Just started following this blog a few weeks ago and I love it! Thanks, Joe, and happy healing!

Johan Moraal

Who came first, pace or lthr? It's a never ending story. In order to find out your lthr you have to pace yourself, but by the time you know how to pace yourself you don't really need to know your lthr anymore. The fuss comes from people wanting to find it out in one easy little test and getting it right at once, instead of starting to ride those long intervals on a regular basis and with an equal effort. Here applies The Rule # 5 of the Velominati and stop wining.-)

Steve Stolarz

Joe, love your stuff - I don't think your a grumpy old man yet; frustrated maybe. I'm thinking that we're more captives to ourselves than we know - go hard for 30 minutes, measure 30 minutes; go hard for 20, measure 20. Going 30 and measuring only 20 doesn't seem to compute. It reminds me of Abbott & Costello. See http://youtu.be/wfmvkO5x6Ng

Ronan McNamara

Hi Joe, I hope I’m not repeating any of the previous comments but this might make it easier for people to understand. 6 months ago I got my LT tested in a lab and found that my threshold was at 165BPM and my pace was 13km/h. having trained at that heart rate over the last few months I now can hold a steady 15km/h @ 165BPM. Effort and intensity stay the same but pace increases. Hope this helps.

Mike Ewer

Many readers get grumpy that you still refer to the vague term LT when these days other experts refer to LT , OBLA and MLSS. Generally most discussions on this seem to assume by LT you mean MLSS as that correlates most with FTP. ;)

Joe Friel

Mike Ewer - And don't forget VT (ventilatory threshold) and AT (anaerobic threshold).


Another possible source for the mental block-- there are relatively few places where one can ride a bike all-out for 30 minutes straight.

Rs Herhuth

Okay Im going to add more frustration. I get what all out means...and I know what 30 minutes is...my problem comes in knowing how to marry the two. My first attempt left me obviously too conservative because I ended up with a 154 average, and continued on to ride another hour and a half with a 165 average. So I try again making sure im above 165? Or do I aim at 170?

Frustrated that I cant get the simple concept to action.

Joe Friel

Rs Herhuth--It's a learning curve for everyone. The more times you do it the better you'll get at pacing. Good luck!


Everything is pretty clear but I do have one question...Can this be done on a trail or does it have to be on the road?

Joe Friel

Matt-I wouldn't recommend testing on a trail.


Hi, as a first year triathlete (male age 36) with no background in any of the sports, I clocked a 172 LTHR in my first running test (which was on an indoor track) but on the bike just 148. I did have to do this on an indoor trainer though due to weather. This seems quite a big difference. On the bike I felt aerobically that I could do more, yet my legs were done in and I really did the best I could. Is there anything I should focus on to improve?

Joe Friel

Vaughany - So far you have two LTHR data points - one for bike and one for run. You need several such data points collected over a period of weeks to narrow down your numbers.

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