I knew someone would ask. I don't know why this whole matter of the 30-minute test is so difficult for folks to understand. So here's the latest question, the one which I mentioned in a previous post I was going to not bring up because it just further confuses everyone...
QUESTION: One question for you--My coach in San Francisco has always said that we should do the LTHR tests at a pace we could hold for an hour. E.g. While the running time trial is 30 minutes, he has told us that the literature suggests that you want to choose a pace that you could hold for up to an hour is you absolutely had to. I did some reading online and there appear to be two schools of thought. The first is what you described in your book and on the blog when you said do the 30 minute time trial at an all out effort and the second which is to do it at a pace you could hold for an hour. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this point.
ANSWER: When you do a one-hour race you go very hard because you are highly motivated due to the race environment--it's a competition and you're psyched. When you do a solo workout of one hour you don’t push yourself quite as hard. It's not a competition. You're not psyched. That's just a normal reaction. You may think you are working just as hard but you most likely are not. So a one-hour solo workout is very unlikely to produce the same pace or power as a one-hour race even if they feel equally hard. In fact, to find the equivalent “race” power/pace for one hour you can do a _solo_ workout of about 30 minutes and the numbers will be roughly the same I've found. In other words, in a solo workout the pace or power for 30 minutes is about equal to the pace or power in a race of 60 minutes.
Joe, I hate to beat this dead horse, but are there any scientific studies that support what you have found to be "roughly the same" (30 minute solo pace/power = 60 min race pace/power) ?
And I guess the corollary to what you have found would be that in a 20 km cycling time trial (or about a 30 minute race), up your pace/power about 5% ABOVE what you can maintain in your solo 30 min effort. Ouch.
Posted by: Fred | 05/05/2011 at 03:05 PM
Fred--I know of one study that confirmed the 30-min test as a way of determining LTHR and LT pace (or FTPa) in competitive runners. Read the abstract here: http://tinyurl.com/3hwm8zm
Posted by: Joe Friel | 05/05/2011 at 04:01 PM
out of respect Joe, I witheld my question, but I guess, after reading this one, I should go ahead and ask....
How do you KNOW its REALLY a 30 minute effort?
BWAHAHAHAHA :-)
Posted by: Wes | 05/05/2011 at 06:19 PM
A while back I had my blood lactate levels tested through the more scientific ride - sample blood - ride harder - sample again - etc. until exhaustion. The results showed a LTHR of 163 (95% of HRmax... I'm 58). A couple days ago I did the 30-min test and the results were 164. Conclusion: my N=1 study confirms this as a reliable way to estimate LTHR!
Posted by: Louis | 05/05/2011 at 06:48 PM
I'm almost afraid to ask this now but...
Considering you should do one 30m test for running and one for cycling should you also do one test for riding your road bike and one for your TT bike?
I've observed that for low effort levels my HR seems a little higher on the TT bike than the road bike, but for high effort levels HR is actually slightly lower on the TT bike.
Unfortunately I don't have (and can't really afford) a power meter to compare and contrast with the HR data.
Posted by: Mark Roberts | 05/05/2011 at 08:05 PM
Dear Joe,
I can confirm your answer 100%. I did the 30 minutes LTHR test you describe in your book and last weekend I raced in a 40km time trial (which took me one hour). My heart rate was in both cases 186 bpm (in the last 20 minutes each).
Posted by: Franz | 05/06/2011 at 01:36 AM
Could it be that the confused are not really racing, so never understand what flat out means.
I've noticed this in some riders. They never ever push it. Each to his own.
If true, like anyone else, looking for a free lunch. But this is sport, the playing field is level, that will never come. Yet they keep asking for the silver bullet.
Posted by: Robin Smith | 05/06/2011 at 04:10 AM
Admirably restrained, Mr. Friel.
Posted by: RobM | 05/06/2011 at 06:05 AM
Mark Roberts - I suspect the HR difference between the two is not significant enough to test each separately.
Posted by: Joe Friel | 05/06/2011 at 05:09 PM
I'm seriously gonna snap if i have to read another question about running or riding as hard as you can for 30 minutes. how many different ways can you say the same thing!!!!!! you have been much more patient than i ever would have with this topic...
Posted by: chris masilon | 05/06/2011 at 10:25 PM
I made the 30 min test to estimate LTHR and average for the last 20 min was 169 for running. I read about a formula to estimate the LTHR the formula is LTHR =180-Age, I'm 40 years old and the by formula my LTHR should be 140. As you can see there's a big difference between the two LTHR. I usually exercise (at least three time a week) but I'm not a elite. I 'm wondering if 169 is to high or is ok for me. Thank you
Posted by: Leonardo Alvarado | 05/09/2011 at 06:05 AM
Leonardo Alvarado- Forget about using a formula to determine anything about your HR. They are more likely to be wrong than right. Testing is the only way to know.
Posted by: Joe Friel | 05/09/2011 at 06:13 AM
I made a diagnostic by an expert and I made the 30min test. Finally I can say that the 30min test had a difference from 2 beats by me. The result is amazing, but by the way I made the test only for running.
In the future I will do the test all 2 months so the expensive professionel diagnostic will be done only 1 time in the year.
best regards from Germany!
Posted by: Dirk | 05/19/2011 at 12:24 AM
Hi Joe,
I've come across your book [MTB Bible] after a recent succession of MTB races and looking forward to future training and a plan built around your suggestions but....
I did the 30 min test on my road training bike [I don't race it] and came up with 137AHR ... I'm 66, thought I went hard, but it looks soft?
Over the past month I've done;
National XCO champs 1:27mins @ 150AHR 92% [very tough course]
100k @ 5:56min @143AHR 86%
50k @ 3:21min @142.5AHR 80%
Obviously I'm going harder at race intensity than I managed in the TT.
Maybe I'll get better at it [the TT] but for starters is 142 a better LTHR to work off?
Posted by: Steve Watson | 03/27/2013 at 11:14 PM
Sorry those last two should read @ 88%
100k @ 5:56min @143AHR 88%
50k @ 3:21min @142.5AHR 88%
My Max HR is 162.
Posted by: Steve Watson | 03/27/2013 at 11:19 PM
Steve Watson --There's no way for me to know either. Keep collecting data points from workouts, tests and races looking for clusters. Good luck!
Posted by: Joe Friel | 03/28/2013 at 06:31 AM